FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
GEN2EFI
Q. Why did you use a stand alone ECU instead of the factory ECU?
A. There are many reasons why we used this approach, I'll list just a few below:
1. I think it's a far more economical in the long run and a less complex way to go. Our system will run happily on the Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda if you decide at any point to change brands. We use only components that are readily available and proven through use in motorsport. In comparison to factory based conversions it's very simple and very light. If you're currently using MFI or carbs and convert to our GEN2EFI, nothing you do on the night will change, its the same as running carbs except its a lot less maintenance and the GEN2EFI has much wider and user friendly powerband.
2. The stock ECU has some amazing features - it's just in most case's these features don't really help to make it a better race ECU. I have no real interest in economy or emissions, and for me at least it would have to be a long way better performance wise before I would accept the complexity and weight.
3. If you want to record any data from the stock ECU it's incredibly hard. Your only real option is to add after market sensors or piggy back into the factory sensors and use a race type dash for example to record and display the stored data. On our system, we continuously log 15+ channels of data - that equates to thousands of dollars worth of "add on" data acquisition to even get close to the same amount of information.
4. Using the stock ECU locks you into the basics of the stock throttle body. If you're using any of the current generation motors, that is a reasonably complex part with 8 injectors and fly-by-wire throttle. All that is great but I'm not sure it adds any real value when used in a "not road racing motorcycle" racing application. Having said that, the factory fly-by-wire throttle can be a great advantage if you can run traction control....
5. Our stand alone loom is very simple, highest quality, light, durable and neat...a lot are not.
Q. If it's so simple why was a Laptop plugged in to the 69 car all the time?
A. Data - if anything of any significance happens on track we always log the data. After hot laps we nearly ALWAYS view the data log, it's just a smart move to confirm the charging system, fuel system and cooling system is good to go for the night.
In our car we are also always testing. Most nights anything of interest we would save and rerun on the dyno. It's amazing to feel how something ran on the track and then to see what that tune up looks like on the dyno!
In previous years we've tried 4 injector combo's, 8 injector combo's, 3 different type throttle bodies, adjustable stacks, fixed stacks and 3 different injector locations! There were pros and cons with every approach, some made great power but wouldn't accelerate, others looked lumpy and horrible on the dyno (way less than 120HP & 45 ft lbs) and yet on the track had us .4 faster than the next fastest car. Some had great throttle response, others were cranky like an old 2-stroke. But the end result confirmed what most of us already know...peak HP&T figures in isolation are a great conversation piece but that's about it.
A. Do I need a laptop at the track?
Q. The short answer is no, it'll run happily as supplied with no absolute need for any input from you at all... Though to take full advantage of the data acquisition and diagnostics available...a laptop is a smart move. Everyday it becomes easier and easier to send data electronically, I've had several instances where I've emailed a slightly adjusted map to a customer based on the data we've collected from the heats and they've gone out and won the feature. If you have phone service and a laptop there's not a lot we can't get sorted.
Q. Can I use your GEN2EFI system on a 2005 R6S motor?
A. Yes, obviously the tune ups between the 2 motors are little different, plus we run a dedicated runner and butterfly on the R6S but everything else is the same. We've done this so you can move over to GEN2EFI now, but still use up your 2003-2005 R6S motors. It really livens up the top end and extends the rpm range on these motors, plus you can't punch a rod out the front of your EFI...
Long term it makes a lot more sense to spend money on a performance upgrade that you can't blow up. This system will also drop straight on your R6R and run happily if needed. The runners and butterflys can be changed up to the dedicated R6R parts at any point in the future.
Q. So what's the downside then?
A. If your car based wiring is not 100% the EFI will find its weakness. For example at 50+ PSI fuel pressure the pump draws a lot more amperage than it did at 5 PSI with your carbs so everything from the switch and wiring to the pump becomes important. Same goes with your charging system. The GEN2EFI draws a lot more electrical load than your current carb or MFI combination and can suffer if the battery and charging system is not up to it.
1. When you earth- ground the 6mm eyelet earth cable that comes from our harness, always connect it to the block or head, never the cam cover AND NEVER TO A COMMON POINT ON THE CHASSIS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE. If you have Common ground point that's fine for everything else, just don't use it for our EFI system, ONLY EARTH-GROUND OUR HARNESS BACK TO THE BLOCK OR HEAD IN ISOLATION FROM EVERYTHING ELSE.
1A. You have to run a starter sized 1/4" - 5/16" earth-ground cable directly from the block back to the battery, it's an obvious one for most but commonly overlooked.
1B. It's also important if you run our later harness's that drives the fuel pump as well that you have at least 25 amps supply to the ignition switch and an ignition switch rated at 25 amps or more.
2. Try and keep all the cables as short as possible, if in doubt always go up to the next size cable, especially on the starter and fuel pump, long and undersized cables cause a lot of resistance and voltage drop, both kill your fuel pump and starter earlier than necessary.
3. When you set the fuel pressure do this with the motor running, the 13.5 to 14 volts the system has at idle will normally add some pump pressure compared to the pressure you’ll get if you set the pressure without the motor running.
4. Mount your fuel pump as low as possible, I prefer them on the floor in front of the seat if possible for a tank with the outlet at shelf behind the seat, or if it's a bottom outlet tank, mounted as low as possible on the rear down tube, if the fuel won’t “siphon" to the pump from the tank then it’s not set up as nice as it could be from a performance and reliability point of view, and obviously never use anything other than swept hi-flow fittings at the entry to the pump. Unlike the old Holley low pressure carb style pumps the high pressure EFI pumps will not reliably lift fuel, they just cavitate, overheat and fail, they only like to push fuel.
5. If you do run a filter between the tank and the pump (I don’t) it’s crucial it’s 100 micron or larger with a heap of surface area, if it’s smaller it’ll cause a restriction between it and the inlet of the pump and potentially kill it, if you don’t know what size filter you have don’t use it.
6. The fuel filter that comes with your kit must be fitted between the outlet of the reg and inlet to the fuel rail, when using this filter we rarely if ever have an injector related issue, plus we use them for full season normally without changing them.
6A. We prefer to use what's called a "dead end" fuel system, and not the traditional "flow through" system, that means we don't run fuel through the rail to a reg and then back to the tank, we come out of the pump, into the reg (return out of the reg direct back to tank) and then up to the rail through our 10 micron paper filter. While "flow through" and "dead end" fuel systems both have Pro's and Con's we prefer to tune around the "dead end" style and have the bonus of simpler and lighter plumbing along with the benefit of only filtering the fuel that we burn. If your fuel system is working correctly there's no difference in either style, if you have a fuel system prone to making air, then a flow through type could give you more consistency.
7. Please mount your fuel pressure gauge in the dash, (All our systems now come with fuel pressure logging included so you can see it on your digital display) the reality is this system is so simple that the only thing that will have a real impact on it’s performance is much lower than recommended fuel pressure or bad - erratic battery voltage. Fuel volume and pressure is never an issue in the pits, so it's pointless having a gauge that only gives you information at a stand still. We all look really smart when the driver comes in and say’s “it was running fine and then it started going bad, I checked the pressure and it was way down” that little bit of info can save a bunch of time looking in all the wrong places for a fault that doesn’t exist!
8. I try and use only DEKA or YUASA PowerSport conventional AGM type batteries, they’re generally very reliable and forgiving (although heavy ) If the Positive AND Negative battery voltage and current fluctuates a lot it makes life really hard on the ECU, and your powersteering . HIGH QUALITY Japanese (NOT CHEAP CHINESE) race type Lithium Ion batteries are fine if you have to have one, just make sure it's a good known brand, the cheap copies go bad really quickly, when they do something weird goes on with the chemistry and it affects the way the ECU behaves, 95% of any inexplicable problems with our EFI system are caused by cheap Chinese lithium batteries, please don't use them!
8A. It's really important to have a good functioning voltage regulator, the latest 2 plug "Mosfet" technology is much easier on the ECU we use and generally more reliable as well. It's the same story here as with the batteries, cheap Chinese copies are rubbish, they'll ruin your night, can make your motor run badly and in some cases smoke your stator coils, don't go there run only genuine Shindengen Voltage regs.
9. Our coils need the “NGK threaded nuts” part # NT4245B screwed onto the end of the spark plugs like the old 2-strokes used to run, these are available at any good Auto Parts Store, we buy them buy the bag @ a few cents each. Or we have been testing a new Brisk surface discharge plug that comes with the threaded nut fixed in place, this might be an easier option for some the part # is AOR10LGS - 1513.
10. If you learn to save the log files with some accurate notes, you’ll soon build a very accurate library of what looks right and what doesn’t, the data early on won't make a lot of sense, however the more (longer time and more logs) you study them “trends” become apparent between a nice car with the right gear and one that’s not so good. If you have a heap of experience and regularly finish at the front, then obviously you’ve already learnt from years of “logging” what your seeing and feeling in your memory bank! If you’re not regularly at the front, the data can definitely speed up the learning process and help you get your car and gear much closer more of the time.
11. We often here people talk of the complexity of EFI, if you have no data and diagnostics at the track then yes any EFI will feel very complex when it's not running right and can end your night pretty quick (especially if you're on 8 injectors and drive by wire). However with our system if you have trouble of any description at the track then all the information relating to any problem that’s EFI related will be in the log, especially if you log fuel pressure, once again we all look a lot smarter when we get comfortable with saving log files and get familiar with what a “normal” log looks like.
Thanks Steve
23-3-2023
GEN2EFI
Q. Why did you use a stand alone ECU instead of the factory ECU?
A. There are many reasons why we used this approach, I'll list just a few below:
1. I think it's a far more economical in the long run and a less complex way to go. Our system will run happily on the Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda if you decide at any point to change brands. We use only components that are readily available and proven through use in motorsport. In comparison to factory based conversions it's very simple and very light. If you're currently using MFI or carbs and convert to our GEN2EFI, nothing you do on the night will change, its the same as running carbs except its a lot less maintenance and the GEN2EFI has much wider and user friendly powerband.
2. The stock ECU has some amazing features - it's just in most case's these features don't really help to make it a better race ECU. I have no real interest in economy or emissions, and for me at least it would have to be a long way better performance wise before I would accept the complexity and weight.
3. If you want to record any data from the stock ECU it's incredibly hard. Your only real option is to add after market sensors or piggy back into the factory sensors and use a race type dash for example to record and display the stored data. On our system, we continuously log 15+ channels of data - that equates to thousands of dollars worth of "add on" data acquisition to even get close to the same amount of information.
4. Using the stock ECU locks you into the basics of the stock throttle body. If you're using any of the current generation motors, that is a reasonably complex part with 8 injectors and fly-by-wire throttle. All that is great but I'm not sure it adds any real value when used in a "not road racing motorcycle" racing application. Having said that, the factory fly-by-wire throttle can be a great advantage if you can run traction control....
5. Our stand alone loom is very simple, highest quality, light, durable and neat...a lot are not.
Q. If it's so simple why was a Laptop plugged in to the 69 car all the time?
A. Data - if anything of any significance happens on track we always log the data. After hot laps we nearly ALWAYS view the data log, it's just a smart move to confirm the charging system, fuel system and cooling system is good to go for the night.
In our car we are also always testing. Most nights anything of interest we would save and rerun on the dyno. It's amazing to feel how something ran on the track and then to see what that tune up looks like on the dyno!
In previous years we've tried 4 injector combo's, 8 injector combo's, 3 different type throttle bodies, adjustable stacks, fixed stacks and 3 different injector locations! There were pros and cons with every approach, some made great power but wouldn't accelerate, others looked lumpy and horrible on the dyno (way less than 120HP & 45 ft lbs) and yet on the track had us .4 faster than the next fastest car. Some had great throttle response, others were cranky like an old 2-stroke. But the end result confirmed what most of us already know...peak HP&T figures in isolation are a great conversation piece but that's about it.
A. Do I need a laptop at the track?
Q. The short answer is no, it'll run happily as supplied with no absolute need for any input from you at all... Though to take full advantage of the data acquisition and diagnostics available...a laptop is a smart move. Everyday it becomes easier and easier to send data electronically, I've had several instances where I've emailed a slightly adjusted map to a customer based on the data we've collected from the heats and they've gone out and won the feature. If you have phone service and a laptop there's not a lot we can't get sorted.
Q. Can I use your GEN2EFI system on a 2005 R6S motor?
A. Yes, obviously the tune ups between the 2 motors are little different, plus we run a dedicated runner and butterfly on the R6S but everything else is the same. We've done this so you can move over to GEN2EFI now, but still use up your 2003-2005 R6S motors. It really livens up the top end and extends the rpm range on these motors, plus you can't punch a rod out the front of your EFI...
Long term it makes a lot more sense to spend money on a performance upgrade that you can't blow up. This system will also drop straight on your R6R and run happily if needed. The runners and butterflys can be changed up to the dedicated R6R parts at any point in the future.
Q. So what's the downside then?
A. If your car based wiring is not 100% the EFI will find its weakness. For example at 50+ PSI fuel pressure the pump draws a lot more amperage than it did at 5 PSI with your carbs so everything from the switch and wiring to the pump becomes important. Same goes with your charging system. The GEN2EFI draws a lot more electrical load than your current carb or MFI combination and can suffer if the battery and charging system is not up to it.
1. When you earth- ground the 6mm eyelet earth cable that comes from our harness, always connect it to the block or head, never the cam cover AND NEVER TO A COMMON POINT ON THE CHASSIS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE. If you have Common ground point that's fine for everything else, just don't use it for our EFI system, ONLY EARTH-GROUND OUR HARNESS BACK TO THE BLOCK OR HEAD IN ISOLATION FROM EVERYTHING ELSE.
1A. You have to run a starter sized 1/4" - 5/16" earth-ground cable directly from the block back to the battery, it's an obvious one for most but commonly overlooked.
1B. It's also important if you run our later harness's that drives the fuel pump as well that you have at least 25 amps supply to the ignition switch and an ignition switch rated at 25 amps or more.
2. Try and keep all the cables as short as possible, if in doubt always go up to the next size cable, especially on the starter and fuel pump, long and undersized cables cause a lot of resistance and voltage drop, both kill your fuel pump and starter earlier than necessary.
3. When you set the fuel pressure do this with the motor running, the 13.5 to 14 volts the system has at idle will normally add some pump pressure compared to the pressure you’ll get if you set the pressure without the motor running.
4. Mount your fuel pump as low as possible, I prefer them on the floor in front of the seat if possible for a tank with the outlet at shelf behind the seat, or if it's a bottom outlet tank, mounted as low as possible on the rear down tube, if the fuel won’t “siphon" to the pump from the tank then it’s not set up as nice as it could be from a performance and reliability point of view, and obviously never use anything other than swept hi-flow fittings at the entry to the pump. Unlike the old Holley low pressure carb style pumps the high pressure EFI pumps will not reliably lift fuel, they just cavitate, overheat and fail, they only like to push fuel.
5. If you do run a filter between the tank and the pump (I don’t) it’s crucial it’s 100 micron or larger with a heap of surface area, if it’s smaller it’ll cause a restriction between it and the inlet of the pump and potentially kill it, if you don’t know what size filter you have don’t use it.
6. The fuel filter that comes with your kit must be fitted between the outlet of the reg and inlet to the fuel rail, when using this filter we rarely if ever have an injector related issue, plus we use them for full season normally without changing them.
6A. We prefer to use what's called a "dead end" fuel system, and not the traditional "flow through" system, that means we don't run fuel through the rail to a reg and then back to the tank, we come out of the pump, into the reg (return out of the reg direct back to tank) and then up to the rail through our 10 micron paper filter. While "flow through" and "dead end" fuel systems both have Pro's and Con's we prefer to tune around the "dead end" style and have the bonus of simpler and lighter plumbing along with the benefit of only filtering the fuel that we burn. If your fuel system is working correctly there's no difference in either style, if you have a fuel system prone to making air, then a flow through type could give you more consistency.
7. Please mount your fuel pressure gauge in the dash, (All our systems now come with fuel pressure logging included so you can see it on your digital display) the reality is this system is so simple that the only thing that will have a real impact on it’s performance is much lower than recommended fuel pressure or bad - erratic battery voltage. Fuel volume and pressure is never an issue in the pits, so it's pointless having a gauge that only gives you information at a stand still. We all look really smart when the driver comes in and say’s “it was running fine and then it started going bad, I checked the pressure and it was way down” that little bit of info can save a bunch of time looking in all the wrong places for a fault that doesn’t exist!
8. I try and use only DEKA or YUASA PowerSport conventional AGM type batteries, they’re generally very reliable and forgiving (although heavy ) If the Positive AND Negative battery voltage and current fluctuates a lot it makes life really hard on the ECU, and your powersteering . HIGH QUALITY Japanese (NOT CHEAP CHINESE) race type Lithium Ion batteries are fine if you have to have one, just make sure it's a good known brand, the cheap copies go bad really quickly, when they do something weird goes on with the chemistry and it affects the way the ECU behaves, 95% of any inexplicable problems with our EFI system are caused by cheap Chinese lithium batteries, please don't use them!
8A. It's really important to have a good functioning voltage regulator, the latest 2 plug "Mosfet" technology is much easier on the ECU we use and generally more reliable as well. It's the same story here as with the batteries, cheap Chinese copies are rubbish, they'll ruin your night, can make your motor run badly and in some cases smoke your stator coils, don't go there run only genuine Shindengen Voltage regs.
9. Our coils need the “NGK threaded nuts” part # NT4245B screwed onto the end of the spark plugs like the old 2-strokes used to run, these are available at any good Auto Parts Store, we buy them buy the bag @ a few cents each. Or we have been testing a new Brisk surface discharge plug that comes with the threaded nut fixed in place, this might be an easier option for some the part # is AOR10LGS - 1513.
10. If you learn to save the log files with some accurate notes, you’ll soon build a very accurate library of what looks right and what doesn’t, the data early on won't make a lot of sense, however the more (longer time and more logs) you study them “trends” become apparent between a nice car with the right gear and one that’s not so good. If you have a heap of experience and regularly finish at the front, then obviously you’ve already learnt from years of “logging” what your seeing and feeling in your memory bank! If you’re not regularly at the front, the data can definitely speed up the learning process and help you get your car and gear much closer more of the time.
11. We often here people talk of the complexity of EFI, if you have no data and diagnostics at the track then yes any EFI will feel very complex when it's not running right and can end your night pretty quick (especially if you're on 8 injectors and drive by wire). However with our system if you have trouble of any description at the track then all the information relating to any problem that’s EFI related will be in the log, especially if you log fuel pressure, once again we all look a lot smarter when we get comfortable with saving log files and get familiar with what a “normal” log looks like.
Thanks Steve
23-3-2023